Sunday, July 30, 2017

The Mechanic I Want To See Return The Most

The Mechanic I Want To See Come Back The Most Is:

Fatigue (Thracia 776)


     It’s no big secret that I love the fatigue mechanic from Thracia 776. It’s one of the few mechanics I can think of that’s designed to counter low manning. One of the biggest problems with the Fire Emblem franchise as a whole is that you can beat it with a small team of super soldier juggernauts whose stats are way better than the enemy’s. Fatigue is the one of the two mechanics I’ve seen that try to counter juggernauting (the other one being debuffs from Fates). Granted, Thracia 776 can still be beaten with a tiny handful of units, but that’s not because of any shortcomings of the fatigue mechanic, but rather because of how ludicrously overpowered the infinite range warp staff is.

                       Fatigue adds an extra layer of strategic depth to the game by preventing the player from being able to use the same units over and over again. By doing so the player is encouraged to use different units so that if two units are fatigued out the player will have backup units ready to go. If the player knows that they’ll need a certain unit for future chapters they can decide to have a unit sit a chapter out so that they won’t fatigue in preparation for said future chapter. No other mechanic encourages widespread unit rotation like fatigue which is what makes it awesome.

   Unfortunately not everyone feels the same way about fatigue. In fact, there are a lot of outspoken critics of the fatigue mechanic. I’ve been coming across the same arguments over and over again to the point where I feel like I can respond to said arguments. So here we go:


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  • Argument # 1: “Fatigue prevents me from using any unit that I want. Any mechanic that arbitrarily prevents me from using my favorite unit is automatically bad. Limiting player freedom is something no video game should ever do.”

                        If I had to pick the most common complaint it would easily be this one by a mile. Most people who don’t like Thracia’s fatigue mechanic usually play a certain way. They identify which units they like and they only use those units for the entire game. Then comes along fatigue which prevents them from doing that and forces them to use more units. They don’t like playing differently so we get this argument.

                     First of all, there’s nothing wrong with making the player use different units. In fact, I consider it to be an overwhelming positive that fatigue forces the player to adjust their normal style of play and adapt so that this never becomes a permanent obstacle. If anything, the series as a whole needs to do a better job of forcing people to play differently. The fact that this throws people off is a good thing.



                      Second, there is nothing arbitrary about the fatigue mechanic. I’ll admit that this is a quote of somebody who admitted that they never played the game, but I’ve seen other people express this kind of sentiment so it’s worth addressing. For those of you who don’t know how fatigue works in Thracia let me summarize this a bit for you. Whenever a unit fights, dances, or uses a staff, their fatigue meter grows by a certain amount. When that fatigue meter becomes greater than or equal to that unit’s max HP they are forced to sit out the next chapter. There is nothing arbitrary about fighting, dancing or using a staff. All of those things are deliberate choices on the part of the player.

       Last, but not least, is the sentiment about player freedom. Dondon151 once said something about the dismount mechanic along the lines of the crucial question to ask when examining the FE 5 dismounting mechanic is, does it add something to the game by taking something away from it?”

                       While he was talking about the dismount mechanic I believe we can ask that same question about fatigue: Does fatigue add something to the game by taking something away from it? I would argue that it does. Preventing the player from being able to use the same units over and over again forces the player to use more units, figure out when the best time to use their favorite units, is and it forces the player to adjust their tactics and thinking. All of these things are good things. Also, Fire Emblem is a strategy game, not an open world sandbox. Player freedom is not the end all be all of a strategy game. Challenging the player’s mental capabilities and actually making them think tactically should be the end result of a game like this.

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Argument # 2:  Fatigue hurts healers way more than combat units. Therefore it’s bad.


If this were any other Fire Emblem game I’d probably agree that this undermines the fatigue mechanic. However this is Thracia 776, aka the game where staff users are great. Staves in this game are at their strongest and every staff bot in the game is at worst pretty good and at best one of the Top 5 Best Units in the Series, Safy (Both Mekkah and Ronaldo at one point have even put Safy in the Top 3 Best Units in the Series). If anyone in Thracia needed a nerf, it would be the staff users.

                                As for the argument that fatigue doesn’t hurt combat units all that much I have a couple of things to say. The first is: How is that worse than letting the player use them for the whole game? Being able to use a character for 5 - 10 levels before fatiguing is still a major improvement over letting the player spam them endlessly.

                         Another point is that if someone plays casually (in other words, they’re not trying to beat the game as fast as they can) they’re probably going to have said unit fatigue more often than an ltc veteran so they would switch out more frequently. Also, how frequent does a player need to switch out certain units before fatigue is considered either a good mechanic or a bad one? I still consider what we have now in Thracia to be a lot better than not having fatigue at all.



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  • Argument # 3: Fatigue can make the game unwinnable under the wrong circumstances.


                  While it’s true that this can happen I think we need to ask ourselves one very important question: How did the player get to that point? Getting into this kind of unwinnable situation doesn’t happen with bad RNG rolls. It happens over time as the player makes one bad decision after another. The player has nobody to blame but themselves.

                          There are ways to avoid this outcome. For starters you could manage your money properly so that you can buy S drinks at the appropriate stores or you could simply use enough units so that the situation never becomes unwinnable. You could also reset when a unit dies instead of choosing to play without them. All of these things are in the player’s control.

                          If a future Fire Emblem game wants to change this by having a unit’s stats decrease then that’s cool too. However, the stat decrease must be significant. None of this “- 10 accuracy” or “prevents unit from gaining experience” bullcrap. I’m talking about cutting stats in half or dividing them by 4. Those would be real consequences.



                          Once again I consider this to be a positive for fatigue since this tells me that the mechanic has real consequences and punishes bad tactics. If someone were to ask me “Would you rather have a mechanic have a huge impact on a game or no impact at all?” I’d opt for the former instead of the latter. Having a huge impact is still having some kind of impact and has a reason to exist. A mechanic that makes no difference begs the question of why it exists, which is why I’m not a fan of the “fatigue” system in Shadows of Valentia. The “fatigue” system in Echoes has basically no impact whatsoever since the game is pretty generous with anti fatigue materials and it’s impact is limited only to the dungeons anyway.

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                Overall, I still love fatigue and the fact that the arguments against it are pretty bad tell me that this mechanic holds up under scrutiny. I’d love to see this in future titles and even with a few tweaks I believe this can have a very positive impact on the series as a whole.

7 comments:

  1. I already commented this among other things on your post in the group in facebook (about part 10), but I think it makes sense mentioning it here.

    I think there should be a visible energy/stamina bar. Then, make every action cause to lose points, like striking or defending (a normal attack/counter/attack round would cost 3 SP), if using high level skills or magic, the loss would be greater.

    This way, your characters would be wearing out during the battle, just for fighting/doing their job. However, the big deal comes next. When you run out of stamina, performing an action would put penalties on some or all of your stats (if you're lacking 3 SP you'd receive a -3 to the stats related to that action). At the beginning of each battle, unless certain map requisites say so (like you're being chased off by the enemy, which could cut your SP by half for the map), you'd start with full SP, but fatigue penalties would carry over to every consecutive chapter the character goes into.

    I think that the mechanic done this way would be great to avoid having a one-man-army that can take on half of the enemies in a chapter by himself knowing that he would be useless in the upcoming one (being able to rest). For example, a knight/general tanking a hot point while everybod else takes on the other side of the map. After being attacked enough, the knight would start losing strength and defense, making it more vulnerable and less effective every turn.

    Another positive thing about this would be that you could send a tired character into battle, knowing that he wouldn't be at optimum condition, but if you need a character to do a given task in a chapter, you may still have him. Examples of these situations would be needing a thief to get treasures, a flier to reach a far away position soon, a healer when all of them are tired, or the most critical of all, a character that is required to recruit an enemy.

    However, if you apply this to enemies, new strategies could be applied to beat certain bosses/sub-bosses with OP stats (the most important bosses would be fatigue free or would be able to recover from it though).

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    1. What's this about a Facebook account?

      Anyway, I went with fractioning stats because fractioned Speed would be a nasty penalty to units capable of abusing it otherwise. But actually, immediate penalties to combat stats isn't such a bad idea, though I think the Fatigue value should be maintained between chapters too. That way, it will not be nuts to prevent every 2 chapters from being juggernauted.

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    2. Grant puts a link to all of his posts in a Facebook group as soon as he publishes his posts, so additional discussions take place there.

      On topic, I think that some stamina recovery should be allowed every chapter, and depending on the chapter, more or less stamina would be regained. If you barely use a soldier in a map, he might even be resting through it. Maybe reset to 0 is too much, but some should be recovered (unless you're in a run-run-run part of the story).

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    3. Ah. I don't know where this Facebook group would be though. That's a thing.

      As to stamina recovery, yeah, some should happen unconditionally, but not as much as the unit outright sitting the map out.

      I think the following bases should apply:
      -Fatigue value when each level of stat penalties applies: 25 base, 30 Armor, 20 mounted, 0.8x promoted
      -Recovery after map clear: 15
      -Recovery for sitting out map: 10 (sum of 25)

      Thinking about it, though, I suspect what really causes juggernauting is a lack of bonus to the attacker for the AI to use to effect. I would recommend additional Fight Speed to the attacker, as it would reduce enemy phase juggernauting as a result of doubling being harder. I did a couple of videos showcasing hacking efforts I made:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue-oGcOg6V4
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6l7Iu1FZSA

      I also checked dondon151's FE6 0% Growths playthrough. It didn't take more than one video before I saw EP juggernauting, and what I caught onto is that with a +10 doubling threshold, freaking NM Damas would have enough Fight Speed, if barely, to avoid being doubled by Marcus with an Iron Sword. Looking at the FE11 0% Growths playthrough, I'm left wondering why Weight was so neutered when that resulted in fewer options. Point is, extra Fight Speed to the attacker would surely improve things.

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  2. I would have put Capturing at #1, but Fatigue is no slouch in being a great idea, not least because designers actually do want to avoid power creep to make sure there would be no expectations of needing to juggernaut stuff.

    I think Fatigue simply needs to be a little less restrictive, though. Have it fraction stats for every given amount of Fatigue the character has. I would say at each given rate, for the given battle, reduce Max HP and all combat stats other than Luck by 18.75% to a maximum reduction of 75%.

    Also, Fatigue happening should be involving values based on character and possibly class, rather than Max HP, which can be increased to absurd levels to allow juggernauting to happen anyway. This would allow for more versatile yet more simplistic balancing ability, hopefully used right to not have a repeat of characters like Mae and Est having God awful Fatigue tolerance despite being Genki Girls; and also to make sure Armor Knights don't get gimped so easily even if they would still have to be used well.

    Heck, that could provide a minor weakness to promoting, in that promoted units would fatigue slightly sooner and consequently not be able to make ridiculous use of their promotion gains.

    Additionally, have the Fatigue value drop by a decent amount for each map the unit isn't deployed and/or Stamina Drink chugged down, rather than reset to 0 outright. That would stop back-to-back juggernauting when the juggernauts would be worn out.

    All in all, Fatigue can be good enough, but definitely needs to account for potential abuses better.

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    1. Maybe there could be an amount of fatigue recovery per chapter, based on class, skills and even the chapter itself. It's not the same being chased through the forest by an enemy army than having a squirmish with bandits while on route to a siege. Things like this would make a player not want to go on a gaiden chapter because the benefits (characters, weapons, items and the experience he would get), wouldn't compensate for the penalties his army would have to endure as a result.

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  3. 3rd times the charm as I am up too late to be posting, but here I am anyways. If you aren't tired of me saying it yet, you will be soon cause Berwick Saga did it differently, but also better. There is no fatigue, but there are 2 things that balance the game against this being a problem. First we have the side quests on main maps. This forces more unit diversity as there are specific units that are required to fulfill the objectives (and the rewards are super good for doing them). The second is the mercenary system. Most of the units in the game cost money for many chapters before you recruit them, and the better they are the more they cost. The best units in the game will cost upwards of 2000 gold if you want them for the main missions, and the cost for all mercs will be halved if you wait to hire them for the side missions, but the best of the best still costs over 1000 gold (more than a horse costs btw). Then there is also the happiness requirements to permanently recruit the mercs, meaning you have to hire them occasionally anyways.

    Basically all I'm saying is that there is a better, proven way to handle the steamrolling and low manning issues than fatigue. I still like fatigue as a concept, but Kaga figured it out and did it better later. Also, as a side note, you aren't going to get locked out of recruiting a character or fulfilling any other objectives because you didn't/couldn't know about not needing to fatigue a certain character.

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